Upcoming balance changes #2

Freyja|ComPet
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:34 am

Upcoming balance changes #2

Postby Freyja|ComPet » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:34 am

Hello everybody! ;)
We are working on the balance changes and would like to hear your input guys.
Please, if you have anything to add, specify the weakest or non-used abilities at all, add few words about OP abilities and any other ideas, suggestions you have. Don't know if it was enough time to get used to the trinkets, but if you have any comments about them, add them too

Thanks, guys, have a good play! ;)

UPDATE:
Hello, we are excited to reveal upcoming balance changes with you guys!
Mostly this is finalized changes, but minor adjustments aren't excluded before update releases

Battle Cry
oldMP: 8, 8, 8, 8, 8
newMP: 10, 12, 14, 16, 18

Quick Attack
oldMP: 10, 10, 10, 10, 10
newMP: 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

Cure
oldMP: 16, 16, 16, 16, 16
newMP: 16, 17, 18, 19, 20

Mana Bomb
oldMP: 25, 25, 25, 25, 25
newMP: 30, 31, 32, 33, 34

Bite
oldMP: 8, 8, 8, 8, 8
newMP: 7, 7, 7, 7, 7

Claw
oldMP: 9, 9, 9, 9, 9
newMP: 8, 8, 8, 8, 8

Sleeper Parasite
oldDMG:
1 - 3 & 11 - 19
2 - 4 & 12 - 24
3 - 5 & 13 - 29
4 - 6 & 14 - 35
5 - 7 & 15 - 42
newDMG:
1 - 3 & 14 - 24
2 - 4 & 15 - 29
3 - 5 & 16 - 34
4 - 6 & 17 - 40
5 - 7 & 18 - 47

Headbutt
oldDMG:
24 - 36
28 - 43
32 - 50
36 - 57
40 - 64
newDMG:
19 - 31
23 - 38
27 - 45
31 - 52
35 - 59

Concussive Slam
oldDMG:
25 - 35
30 - 41
35 - 47
40 - 53
45 - 59
newDMG:
20 - 30
25 - 36
30 - 42
35 - 48
40 - 54


Vampire Bite
oldMP:10, 10, 10, 10, 10
newMP:15, 16, 17, 18, 19
oldDMG:
6 - 12 & 0.5 || 1
8 - 14 & 0.5 || 1
9 - 17 & 0.5 || 1
11 - 19 & 0.5 || 1
12 - 22 & 0.5 || 1
newDMG:
"9 - 18 & 0.5 || 1
10 - 20 & 0.5 || 1
11 - 23 & 0.5 || 1
13 - 25 & 0.5 || 1
15 - 28 & 0.5 || 1"

Tackle
oldDMG:
10 - 13
12 - 15
14 - 18
16 - 20
18 - 22
newDMG:
12 - 18
14 - 20
16 - 22
18 - 24
20 - 26

Mind Blast
oldDMG:
9 - 15
10 - 18
11 - 21
12 - 24
13 - 27
newDMG
9 - 15
10 - 18
11 - 21
12 - 24
13 - 27

Mocking Strike
oldDMG:
4 - 8
7 - 13
10 - 18
10 - 18
13 - 23
newDMG:
9 - 11
12 - 14
15 - 17
18 - 20
21 - 23


Block
oldMP: 10, 10, 10, 10, 10
newMP:15, 15, 15, 15, 15

Deadly Poison
oldMP:18, 18, 18, 18, 18
newMP:18, 19, 20, 21, 22
oldDMG:
1, increment 2, max 8
1, increment 2, max 9
1, increment 2, max 10
1, increment 2, max 11
1, increment 2, max 12
newDMG:
1, increment 2, max 8
1, increment 3, max 9
1, increment 4, max 10
1, increment 5, max 11
1, increment 6, max 12
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Freyja|ComPet
Posts: 103
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:34 am

Re: Upcoming balance changes #2

Postby Freyja|ComPet » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:40 am

To start out I want to point up few things



Vampire bite: Seems too weak, would like it to be more competitive compared to other abilities

Claw: To OP for crit builds, but can be countered by block. What do you think of it?

Mind Battle: Almost not used at all

Dead Poison: Almost not used at all

Sleeper Parasite: Almost not used at all

Brutal Strike: Has cool effect but really low damage

Bash & Panic: The fact that Bash exist makes almost all build must have "Panic" ability which I find bad
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Svarog
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Re: Upcoming balance changes #2

Postby Svarog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:10 am

Crit buffs on Claw actually made me interested in it, before that I ignored it as too low dmg.
Freyja|ComPet
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Re: Upcoming balance changes #2

Postby Freyja|ComPet » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:07 am

Svarog wrote:Crit buffs on Claw

What did you mean by that?
Crit + Claw always was a very strong setup
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Svarog
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Re: Upcoming balance changes #2

Postby Svarog » Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:54 pm

Freyja|ComPet wrote:
Svarog wrote:Crit buffs on Claw

What did you mean by that?
Crit + Claw always was a very strong setup


Oh, I was thinking about buffs from trinkets when I was writing that :). Perhaps been using it wrong way but never was amused by unbuffed Claw.
NotSure
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:52 am

Re: Upcoming balance changes #2

Postby NotSure » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:31 pm

I think that winning Initiative gives too much advantages at once:
1. Increases critical chance;
2. Augments some abilities - Ambush, Body Slam, Venomous Bite, Quick recovery, Lick Wounds, Mind Blast;
3. The effect of a lot of abilities (with effect ower time) is reduced with one turn when they are cast without initiative (at the end of round) - Block, Battle Cry, Maim and so on...

While 1 and 2 are OK, I think 3 must be correct. If ability description say "lasts 5 rounds" it must affect 5 enemy turns and not 5 with initiative but 4 without.
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Treb
Posts: 139
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Re: Upcoming balance changes #2

Postby Treb » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:23 pm

Freyja|ComPet wrote:Hello everybody! ;)
We are working on the balance changes and would like to hear your input guys.
Please, if you have anything to add, specify the weakest or non-used abilities at all, add few words about OP abilities and any other ideas, suggestions you have. Don't know if it was enough time to get used to the trinkets, but if you have any comments about them, add them too

Thanks, guys, have a good play! ;)



Heyas Freyja! This is a great list you posted in the thread.. you have touched on all the abilities here which I have noticed also...


Vampire bite: Seems too weak, would like it to be more competitive compared to other abilities

Totally agreed - perhaps either increase its direct damage or allow higher modifier from using ignite.
And/Or maybe give similar bonus modifiers to vampire bite when used on stunned or asleep pets.


Claw: To OP for crit builds, but can be countered by block. What do you think of it?

I think claw is pretty solid for the moment.. it's a big gamble sometimes with the wide damage spread, even when using with aggro-build pets.
Block could use a slightly higher boost though.. ideally if your pet's individual endurance level gave direct % modifier to its effects.


Mind Battle: Almost not used at all

Yes this is very sad.. especially since it is a top tier level spell.
I would say either increase it's base damage closer to 75%-100% of mana difference, or, add additional buff or supporting ability modifier.

Dead Poison: Almost not used at all

Either increase base damage, increase stack damage amount per round, or make difficult to dispel - similar to health parasite.. must use bodyslam or lick wounds to remove.

Sleeper Parasite: Almost not used at all

I "kinda" see the intent with this ability.. force your opponent to spend mana harming themselves (because you are sadistic), provide decoy debuff (because you are cruel), or just delay damage gratification (wow you really are sadistic aren't you?).. but the current casting cost, cooldown time, and max damage are so disordered not sure where to even start..

Brutal Strike: Has cool effect but really low damage

Personally I think it works fairly well as it is now.. wouldnt hurt to bump up base damage 10% or so though ;>

Bash & Panic: The fact that Bash exist makes almost all build must have "Panic" ability which I find bad

I felt that way for a long while but as I have played more with higher pet levels I've realized it's almost like a rock/paper/scissors situation..
If you equip bash and say backstab then you are gambling on your pet's initiative and opponent's lack of (or delayed use) of panic...
Similarly if you equip panic you are sacrificing one of your abillity slots simply to "hedge your bets" in case you vs a high init opponent with bash.



Now regarding trinkets..

I have posted other trinket suggestions in other posts so I will limit it to just one topic. As I have done in most all my recent forum posts since the trinket system released.. I must emphasize again my distaste for buff damage in general. Just this "one" modifier alone is completely off-balancing about every other aspect of this game.. especially strategy in general.

I was lucky enough to obtain 4x trinkets with buff damage and all with 2/3 or 3/3 of the standard aggressive modifiers - obviously this only resulted in ridiculous matches... Either it was a 3-round perfect/near-perfect win for me or it was a 3-or-4-round pissing contest with similarly equipped opponent - AND,- mind you, there are a dozen or less possible match variations/outcomes here. Even if every turn is played optimally as possible it's still mostly a coin-flip whether or not your high aggro buff dmg pet gets initiative or hits max/crit damage against similar opponent. Regardless of either scenario it just seemed either abusive or "boring" to me so I limited myself to 2x max for buff dmg. BUT.. unfortunately... after a string of defensive raid battle ass-handings vs angry 4x buff invaders I reequipped my village guard with other 2x buff dmg trinkets just to help give me a 50% chance of saving my gold.

Earlier I compared bash & panic to the game rock/paper/scissors so BUFF DAMAGE compares a bit to Tic-Tac-Toe or Eenie Meenie Miney Mo.. not very challenging for seasoned players and mostly just childish or cowardly against "bd-less" opponents. It would be quite the undertaking and could potentially *worsen* the situation even further, but here's an ill thought out concept I just had..
Much as in every aspect of reality there are equal and opposite forces keeping balance.. buff damage, "bdmg", is completely one-sided offense without any balancing defensive force... what if a countermeasure system was designed for defense? Perhaps instead of doing additional damage as with bdmg you could do additional damage reduction using exact same concept but using defensive moves and not offensive. Or.. perhaps you could even base the buff protection, "bprot", on the OPPONENT's buffs instead of your own ;>

with Love,
-Treb, the brainhugger
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Treb
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Re: Upcoming balance changes #2

Postby Treb » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:16 pm

NotSure wrote:I think that winning Initiative gives too much advantages at once:
1. Increases critical chance;
2. Augments some abilities - Ambush, Body Slam, Venomous Bite, Quick recovery, Lick Wounds, Mind Blast;
3. The effect of a lot of abilities (with effect ower time) is reduced with one turn when they are cast without initiative (at the end of round) - Block, Battle Cry, Maim and so on...

While 1 and 2 are OK, I think 3 must be correct. If ability description say "lasts 5 rounds" it must affect 5 enemy turns and not 5 with initiative but 4 without.



I'm glad you brought this up.. I've felt the same pain but could not express it quite as elloquently as you have here ;)
It does also, as you have suggested, seem to give an unfair and unbalanced advantage to AGR pets when you consider they already own the market for damage potential (compounded when applied with ability *and* trinket modifiers). Just having initiative advantage itself, even if there were no dependent abilities, can determine outcome of a match alone... then when you consider there *are* dependent abilities which are "as or more valuable" than even modifiers...

More I think about it the more it goes back to the whole counterbalance concept... quite a few one-way forces in play that need an equally powerful counteragent...

STAMINA:
I admit there "are" some counterbalances with employing high levels of stamina.. one being that you often sacrifice other trinket modifiers which in a lot of cases could be "as or more useful" for the specific pet. But since the latest trinket VU which changed base stat modifiers from a % to a fixed increase amount (+X) a lot of trinkets are tilted too far in one direction.. for example.. a caveman necklace which "used to" give max +10% endurance, +3 stamina, +10 max mana is less desirable now that endurance is +10pts and not +10%. You were already sacrificing a lot of modifier potential just by using this in a slot before, but at least before the change the same sacrifice could be more rewarding. Example; consider you were equipping this trinket (max lv10) on a pet with 250 endurance:

*Before last VU: A realized gain of +25 endurance (which adds something like 7-8 full stamina points I think)
*Now: A realized gain of +10 endurance (which adds I think appx 3 stamina).

It almost seems silly to even have an endurance trinket bonus now.. why not just move the trinket endurance bonus to file 13 and double the current trinket stamina bonus amount... (assuming I am roughly accurate with "3 endurance = 1 stamina" formula).

BUFF DAMAGE:
Refer to my rantings in previous post:
viewtopic.php?p=25307&sid=ac49a32c82bff8c812296407cb3f36e9#p25307


Ok well I have more ideas (if you can believe it) but need to break and stop playing with my skull putty for now.
...More later..

with Love,
-Treb, the brainhugger
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Treb
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Re: Upcoming balance changes #2: Stamina Penalty

Postby Treb » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:56 pm

Why does it seem like most/all of my pets are not able to use effects of Stamina Penalty, "sp", trinket bonus?? Opponents using sp still seem to be dealing extra damage and the sp gfx animation (smoke/ghostly-looking vapors) displays on ME when I am out of stamina but I have not noticed any of MY OPPONENTS displaying this gfx or any additional damage when my trinket should be active. I thought maybe there was a bug when having more than one sp trinket equipped so I removed all but one.. did not seem to make any difference :?

-Treb
miles
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Re: Upcoming balance changes #2

Postby miles » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:24 am

Lots of good comments, so I am going to just a a couple of points.

Mind Battle is actually more useful since the change to the trinkets, as the potential spread in Mana is much greater than before, but it only has good potential when your pet has an extreme mana setup - high or low. I think it is overlooked because high level pets have a lot of easier options at their disposal, but it would be easier to carry interesting skills without the Panic block. (MB can great against some foes, worthless against others.)

Deadly Poison should have no cure - but should expire after it has reached full strength (9 rounds?). Maybe have it go a bit longer, but not forever.

Peace, Miles

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